Christian Purity: Things That (Apparently) Need to Be Said
*WARNING* This post contains frank discussions of sex, sexual misconduct, and various sexual activities. It may also contain controversial opinions on those topics. Use your own discretion.
Hello!
- Girls Gone Wise in a World Gone Wild (by Mary A. Kassian)
- Passion and Purity: Learning to Bring Your Love Life Under Christ's Control (by Elisabeth Elliot)
- Kissed the Girls and Made Them Cry: Why Women Lose When They Give In (by Lisa Bevere)
- Every Young Woman's Battle: Guarding Your Mind, Heart, and Body in a Sex-Saturated World (by Shannon Ethridge and Stephen Arterburn)
But after all, you'd say ⎼ how bad could it be?
HA.
You will see just exactly how bad it can be.
"But Olivia," you ask, "how did you get access to these books anyway, if you were predisposed to hate them?"
My mom was doing some deep-cleaning and she came across these random books, doubtless either picked up at thrift stores or gifted to her in her homeschooling days. She hadn't read them all, but she asked if I was interested in them because she knows I'm all about Problematic Christian Content™. And I said, "heck yes". And I read them.
And here we are.
I REGRET EVERYTHING.
Of course, it's important to acknowledge that our enemy is not the people who hold or propagate this ideology; our enemy is the ideology itself. That being the case, I want to take the time to issue some disclaimers before I begin.
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1. I am not rejecting the people who wrote these books. I am not trying to "cancel" them. I am not dismissing the work they have done for God, nor am I questioning the sincerity of their commitment to him or the integrity of their intentions.
I am condemning their teaching [as expressed in these books]; I am not condemning them.
2. Similarly, I am not trying to attack you if you hold some of the beliefs I am about to criticize. I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me. I hate some of the ideology; I do not hate you for supporting the ideology. At the same time, however, I'm not going to apologize for the strength of the censure in this post. If you decide that you do not want to read it, I understand and it's okay. I'll see you next time we chat about stories and I'll look forward to it. ♡
3. I am no better, and I recognize that. I have believed and preached ideas just as wrong and harmful as any you'll find in these books. I have believed that people are less worthy of respect if they have sinned sexually. I have believed that if a woman does x, she can't blame others for thinking of her as y. I have judged other people holistically, instead of judging their actions.
And I have preached these ideas through my words and interactions with others.
That is my fault, that is my error, and I am sorry for it.
I can recognize wrong teaching and call it out, but I must do so remembering that there, in spite of the grace of God, once went I.
4. I believe in abstinence from sexual intercourse until marriage. We all know this. But I'm not going to be saying, "I believe in abstinence, but . . . " every time I finish criticizing these theories on chastity. So I'm stating it here to stave off confusion or accusation. I believe in remaining "pure" until marriage. But I also believe that, on many levels, we're going about it the wrong way. This post, however, will mainly deal with addressing those wrong ways rather than detailing specific alternatives.
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I knew before I started reading the books that I wanted to write this post. But, to be honest, after I finished, the idea of plunging back into them and trying to spin anything remotely coherent or comprehensive out of the filth within them was a little overwhelming. There was simply so much wrong contained in them ⎼ so many falsehoods that desperately needed to be addressed because they were still actively harming people. How could I be sure to cover every transgression?
In the end, I went back and tabbed the places I most wanted to talk about, recognizing that if I did try to go over everything, I'd likely drive myself crazy. But, it turns out, even a preliminary skim yielded far too much content to discuss.
That's why it's taken me weeks to get this post up and running. Aside from the heaviness of the subject matter, I had to figure out a structure for the post that was even doable. Finally, I decided to pare down my List of Grievances to six that I was most passionate about. Doing so means that you'll only get a taste of all the nonsense I found in these books; I'll circle back to this point at the conclusion.
For now, here are a mere few of the Thoughts that were Thought. The Lessons Learned, one might say. The Insights Gained. (As I address my concerns, I'll parenthetically cite the quotes I use by author.)
Things are gonna be pretty heavy here for a little while, but I'll try to inject as much humor as I can, and we'll be back to our regularly scheduled "Fun with Stories" programming in no time. I promise. 😘
Let's begin. (I hope it goes without saying that this is a long post? If not: this is a long post.)
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1. Christians still suck at discussing female libido.
"A male wants to look and touch, while [a female] would prefer to relate and connect emotionally."
"A male can enjoy the act of sex without committing his heart or bonding spiritually with the object of his physical desire. . . . A healthy young female, on the other hand, usually gives her body only to someone she thinks of night and day and with whom her heart and spirit have already connected (unless there is dysfunctional or addictive behavior involved)." [emphasis mine]
"[Guys] are built for visual stimulation. Their ultimate goal is physical intimacy. It's just how they are made. . . . On the other hand, you, as a female, are built for relational stimulation. Your ultimate goal is emotional bonding. It's just how you're made."
. . .
. . .
. . .
*closes book*
*breathes deeply*
*screams*
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(Those three quotes are from the Ethridge & Arterburn book, though they are reflective of attitudes in all four.)
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Do you know what happens to young women when you issue idiotic blanket statements like, "Guys give love to get sex and girls give sex to get love"?
Do you know what happens to young women when you teach them that that desire for emotional intimacy is the only [natural] reason they will ever be sexually tempted?
Do you know what happens to young women when you erroneously claim that all men are infinitely more visually stimulated than all women?
They will begin to see their libido as unnatural, perverted, sinful, or flatly unreal. Young women who have strong sex drives will have to wrestle with feeling guilty merely for the interest itself, because you have taught them that it should not be there. You make them fear that they are nymphomaniacs simply because they may want sex for sex's own sake. You teach them that it is "unhealthy," "dysfunctional," or "addictive" to desire the experience of physical pleasure in sex irrespective of its other components.
It's as if Christian mentors paint a picture for the kids they are mentoring, a picture of a fantasyland wherein all men are guided by their genitals and all women are guided by their hearts.
And it's harmful.
And it needs to stop.
(ALSO: way to reduce all men to the lowest, basest of creatures by claiming that their "ultimate goal is [sex]." Wow.)
Story #1: A woman who masturbated when single experiences dysfunction when she marries. Her husband is "rougher and more aggressive," sexually speaking, than she would like. She attempts to communicate this to him, but eventually he responds defensively instead of taking her feedback to heart and adjusting his behavior. The woman laments that her history of self-arousal keeps her from being pleased by her husband, thus creating a "blow to his ego". [Ethridge & Arterburn]
But the masturbation isn't what most concerns me in this anecdote. It is included in the section in which it appears in order to scare young women away from masturbating ⎼ but never once do the writers address the sexual misconduct of the husband in this scenario.
Let me make this simple for you: If a man is having sex with a woman, and she communicates to him that he is causing her physical discomfort or pain, and he refuses to modify what he's doing, then his mindset falls along the same spectrum as that of the rapist: "I am entitled to get sex from this woman on my terms, no matter what she has to say about it."
(Note that I am not saying that this man's actions are the same thing as rape; I am saying that he demonstrates the same mindset. And that is dangerous.
Additionally, I want to clarify that the response of the husband in this specific story may have only been an honest expression of pain due to the sexual dysfunction he and his wife were experiencing. There is nothing wrong with spouses being honest with each other about their hurt. But the way this story was related, in its section of the book, was extremely concerning to me, because the authors appeared to brush aside a deeper issue: namely, a man not reacting well to a woman giving him feedback about her physical comfort level.)
This is an example of the perspective that I said I used to have: "If a woman does x, she can't be surprised if y happens."
The idea behind that perspective is this: If a woman dresses, moves her body, speaks, or acts in a certain way, men will "naturally" mistreat her sexually. Therefore, if a woman doesn't want to be sexually mistreated, she must not dress, move her body, speak, or act in that certain way.
The problem with this mindset is that if you make an action inevitable, you make it involuntary on the part of the perpetrator. If you treat sexual misconduct as a foregone conclusion, then, whether you intend to or not, you remove at least some degree of blame from sexual offenders.
"Yes, sexual misconduct is wrong, but if a woman does x, she can't be surprised if y happens because y always will happen."
Adultery will always happen.
Theft will always happen.
But when someone is complaining about the fact that murder, adultery, or theft has occurred, our response as a society is not, "Well, what did you expect? You did x, so it's only natural that y happened." The "yes, but" argument should not be used in cases of sexual misconduct. It doesn't matter what the extenuating circumstances were. They are irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the time, place, dress, or speech seemed to create a favorable environment for it. That is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it's something that has happened since the dawn of time and likely will happen until the end of time. That, too, is irrelevant.
I'm not saying we shouldn't exercise caution. There are definitely things women can and "should" do to try to protect themselves. But the fact is that sexual misconduct happens anywhere, anytime, no matter how cautious the victim was being. And when it happens, the reaction should not be, "But were you walking down that alley alone?" The reaction should be, "We're going to help you and then we're going to find the person who did this so we can throw his or her sorry a** in jail."
In cases of sexual misconduct, you are only ever justified in saying "you should have known better" to the perpetrator.
I think every single book alluded to the merits of the arranged marriage "tradition" in some way or another, but I know for a fact that at least two of them did. And just . . . y'all.
"There is not much likelihood that our society will ever consent to arranged marriages. We are stuck with our ill-defined system." [Elliot]
"[The ancient Hebraic form of arranged marriage] is a glorious and romantic reflection of Jesus and His bride." [Bevere]
I recognize that some people willingly and gladly participate in arranged marriages. Bully for them. But the fact is that, far too often, 'arranged marriage' is just a prettier way of saying 'forced marriage'.
And, in case you're not getting it,
FORCED
MARRIAGE
IS
HUMAN
TRAFFICKING.
Also, for those of you who don't know: this is still happening. All over. And if you think America is immune, or that Muslim communities are the only ones still practicing it, I suggest you start doing some serious research.
People (often children) are still being sold into sex slavery in the name of "arranged marriage". They are still being coerced to acquiesce to a binding union for which they have no desire. They are still being beaten and killed if they resist or if they fail bogus chastity tests.
Don't try to sell me a sunshine-and-daisies version of arranged marriage, because I'm not about to buy it.
According to these books, it is unnatural, inappropriate, and "pushy" for women to approach men and ask them on a date. Here's a sampling of what they had to say about it:
"Males, as the physical design alone would show, are made to be initiators. Females are made to be receptors, responders. . . . Adam and Eve made a mess of things when they reversed roles. She took the initiative, offered him the forbidden fruit, and he, instead of standing as her protector, responded and sinned along with her. It's been chaos ever since." [Elliot, emphasis mine]
- I will wait to comment on most of these quotes, but I can't let this one go by without first addressing these two points:
- Don't you love some solid phallic symbolism? More than one of these authors tried to use anatomy as a "proof" of the legitimacy of their opinion on gender roles, and . . . it was A Time, I can assure you.
- Behold: "His gentleness moves out and toward. Her gentleness accepts and welcomes in." [Kassian]
- I just . . . yeah.
- Notice that Elliot just implied that all the incomprehensible tragedy of the Fall can be traced back to Eve taking initiative ⎼ not, as the Bible actually records, to Eve's direct disobedience of God's specific command.
"Social convention now stipulates that women can and ought to be initiators in male-female relationships. They can take the lead. This may sound good in theory, but it doesn't work very well in practice. I constantly see the carnage resulting from this approach." [Kassian, emphasis mine]
"She had no business in the first place "tactfully" making her feelings known. Poor choice of words. A woman taking that kind of initiative is not tactful." [Elliot, emphasis mine]
"Let me get this straight: You asked him out. You pursued him. You took the lead. You dominated the relationship. . . . [Y]ou expect him to go against years of emasculation and suddenly become a man?" [Kassian, emphasis mine]
- "EMASCULATION"?!?!? Are you freaking kidding me?!?!?!
I know it's hard to believe, but there is, in fact, More. A few of the authors took it upon themselves to interview guys and find out how they feel about girls asking them out. Here are some of the responses:
- "It's a shock." [emphasis mine]
- "A turnoff."
- "When a girl comes after me, it makes me want to run. . . . I'd rather have a girlfriend who is going to let me lead in the relationship."
- "The girls are way more aggressive than the boys and try too hard to have control over everything. It's scary." [emphasis mine]
. . .
. . .
. . .
Sweetie. SWEE-TAY. 😂
You're saying that a girl showing open, direct interest in you scares you??
So . . . I guess you're saying that not having your personal boundaries respected is frightening to you?
You're saying that experiencing unsolicited romantic overtures is frightening to you?
You're saying that having to interact with a sexually aggressive individual who isn't taking 'no' for an answer is frightening to you?
Wow. Gee whiz. That must be rough. We women could certainly never, ever understand what that feels like . . . . .
No one should have to deal with repeated requests for a relationship if they have once refused. That goes for both men and women, and I mean that sincerely. Additionally, some women genuinely prefer the guy to initiate, and that's fine ⎼ no one's forcing you to take the initiative.
But you cannot judge other people over something as objectively trivial and amoral as who "should" make the first move. You cannot claim that it is only ever "right" for the guy to do the majority of the asking just because that is your preference or the traditional way.
And if, as a male, your sense of manhood is so incredibly fragile that it can be threatened by a woman asking you if you want to get coffee sometime, then you have constructed an extra-biblical ideal of masculinity that depends upon your ability to be in control ⎼ essentially, one that depends upon pride and sin.
So, if that's you, I say this to you with the utmost sincerity: Grow a pair.
Don't you love how virtually every chastity book ever will at some point say something like, "purity isn't about a list of do's and don'ts!!!," but will then proceed to include something that is explicitly and exclusively a list of do's and don'ts?? 😂
Here's the problem: You can say that the Bible objectively and universally prohibits premarital sexual intercourse. But there's not much else that you can say in terms of "how far is too far". You can and probably should have your own convictions about activities that more closely approximate sexual intercourse ⎼ that's a whole other discussion. But the simple fact is that, when it comes to most questions about the physical aspect of a relationship, you have very little authority to sanction or forbid specific activities across the board, for everyone else.Yet, for some reason, these authors all seem to feel that it's their place to give all-encompassing advice on the minutiae of every physical issue, no matter how trivial. A mere smattering:
- Girls shouldn't ever give guys full hugs.
- Girls shouldn't ever drape their legs over a guy's legs if they're sitting perpendicular to each other.
- Girls should always ensure that there is no angle from which anyone could ever see their cleavage.
- (As if that is humanly possible to do???)
- Girls' shorts or skirts should always reach a very specific length.
- Girls should never wear spaghetti-strap tops.
- (Because, like, it's just so inconsiderate to tempt guys with those erotic shoulders.)
- Girls should never wear crop tops.
- (Because, again, the vERY IDEA of a pOOR INNOCENT CHRISTIAN BOI having to endure the sight of a woman's tANTALIZING NAVEL is just sIMPLY UNCONSCIONABLE.)
- (But, of course, we wouldn't want said Christian bois to feel any guilt about stripping completely half-naked as soon as they break a sweat; because, after all, we wouldn't want them to be uncomfortable.)
- Kisses should never last longer than three seconds.
- (One of the books literally said three seconds.)
- (Of course, the understood implication is it would really be better to not kiss at all before marriage ⎼ or at least engagement ⎼ because, as we all know, that demonstrates greater discipline and greater spiritual commitment!)
Here's a perfect example of the kind of hypocritical legalism to be found in these books:
Elliot relates how she and Jim came to the conclusion that they went too far physically during one of their visits. Now, what they did during the visit was this: the two of them walked arm-in-arm, sat shoulder-to-shoulder, and Jim lay down with his head in Elisabeth's lap. This, they decide, was too far. And it may very well have been too far for them; I do not presume to question the legitimacy of their convictions for themselves.
Thankfully, Elliot does not explicitly insinuate that everyone should have these same standards about premarital physicality; but it is, like most other things in the book, relayed as an example of a more righteous way to approach romantic relationships (even if that is unintentional).
Here's what really killed me about this situation. Even those innocuous physical "touches" were frowned upon when they were courting, right? Yet, later in the book, Elisabeth shares an excerpt from a letter Jim wrote to her after they became engaged; and she expresses no concern about its content. Here is the excerpt:
Oh, to be able to take you [to bed], darling, and do as I have dreamed of doing with those clothes of yours, and really feel the clean flesh of your beautiful long legs against the broadness of my own. Thunder of Deep Heaven! What gasping bliss that would be tonight. But it will wait for us, and be, as you've said, "perfect" when we arrive there. I long to fondle you tonight, Betts, and whisper that I love you . . .
Um?!?!?!
"Do as I have dreamed of doing with those clothes of yours"?!
"The clean flesh of your beautiful long legs"?!
"GaSPiNG bLisS"?!?!?!
But sure, the shoulder-touching really crossed a line.
And, see, here's the thing. I personally would not like to receive a love letter like that from my fiancé. (I would want us to have very open and thorough conversations about sex and sexual expectations, temptations, etc.; but not in a love letter context.) Yet, even though it's a bit much for me, I wouldn't condemn it in another committed couple's relationship. I wouldn't insinuate that by saying such things to each other, they would be "sinning" sexually.
But, unlike Elliot, I have not just written a book which claims that couples who make out sometimes or sit in each other's laps might as well just have sex, because they are already compromising their purity almost as badly.
The hypocrisy, y'all. Can we not.
Here are some final quotes that offer another wee sampling of all the multifarious problems in these books. Hopefully, they'll speak for themselves ⎼ but just in case they don't, I'll be sure to address them point by point.
"Yet, even though true beauty cannot be measured by outward appearances, looking good on the outside is relatively important because you represent God." [Ethridge & Arterburn, emphasis mine]
"[Woman] was created for ⎼ that is, toward or with reference to [man], or on account of him. She was created because of him. His existence led to hers." [Kassian, emphasis mine]
"Jim went on to tell of a conversation with an Ecuadorian friend who had made a girl pregnant. The willingness of the girl fooled him into thinking all would be well. He had then been framed by her parents, arrested, and forced to marry her. . . . How Juan could esteem a woman like that I don't know." [Elliot, emphasis mine]
"In John Eldredge's excellent book, . . . he shares the common disappointment men experience when they look for their fulfillment from what he calls the 'fair-haired maiden.' Ah, but what of us women? Is not our guilt even greater? For we have looked too long at Adam only to be let down. Adam was before Eve. And Adam is still before her. Adam represents a preeminence woman will never know, because he was first." [Bevere, emphasis mine]
Ethridge and Arterburn just told teenage girls that the aesthetics of their physical appearance are "relatively important". RELATIVELY. IMPORTANT. They said that to teen. age. girls. AND they tried to make it a kind of spiritual standard.
Kassian claims that woman "was created because of" man, that man's "existence led to hers." The basis for this claim is that woman was created to be "a helper suitable for man," and that woman was created from the rib of man. But notice that she does not apply the same line of reasoning to man. She does not say that man was created because of the animals just because man was created to be a guardian for the animals. She does not say that dust's existence led to man's just because man was created from dust. Woman was created because God wanted her to exist: her own, individual, sufficient person. Let's get that straight here and now.
Elliot implies that the degree of guilt attached to sexual sin varies based on the gender of the sinner. Why does Jim not comment on how difficult it is to esteem the man in that situation? Why does he not, as a man, take a fellow man to task for impregnating and then being unwilling to marry a woman?
Bevere does the same thing. Exactly how does she come to the conclusion that women are somehow more to blame than men when they do the exact same thing? Sadly, this blatantly sexist mindset is present in all four books. All four, in one way or another, insinuate that, while premarital sex may be wrong for both genders, it is at least natural (and therefore slightly less reprehensible) for men to misstep. (Again, propagating the idea that men are the only ones who have strong sex drives.)
To sum up this entire post, why are we feeding young women these poisonous ideologies in the name of solid biblical teaching?
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I don't know what else to say, at this point.
I haven't even addressed many of the other things that rendered me furious or revolted or incredulous. I haven't addressed the object-based virginity lessons. I haven't addressed the ridiculous amount of emphasis placed on "emotional" purity ('ware crushes, ladies). I haven't even touched on submission and other marital politics.
I haven't even addressed many of the other things that rendered me furious or revolted or incredulous. I haven't addressed the object-based virginity lessons. I haven't addressed the ridiculous amount of emphasis placed on "emotional" purity ('ware crushes, ladies). I haven't even touched on submission and other marital politics.
The majority of these books don't seem to be that popular in mainstream Christian culture . . . at least, not anymore. That makes me feel marginally better. But then, I don't have all the information. They're older, so I can't speak to what they once were. My mom said she'd been aware of the popularity of at least one of them closer to when it was published.
And, of course, Passion & Purity is still very widely read and very widely respected. That knowledge discourages me, truthfully. And I'm not joking.
Sure, it's fun to get All Worked Up™ and give sarcastic comebacks to dreadful ideas. But it's less fun to really think about the fact that these dreadful ideas are genuinely supported by real, well-intentioned people ⎼ by my family members in Christ ⎼ by people who love others and truly want to help them. It's less fun to begin to get even a glimpse of the amount of havoc that these ideas have wrought and are still wreaking in the lives of young people. It's less fun to accept the fact that however strongly you feel, you may never be able to convince people of the error of these ideas.
So. *shrugs*
There you have it.
There you have it.
Let's talk, if you want to.
All of this, obviously, and irrefutably, as we have discussed at great length in private, is Terrible.
ReplyDeleteBut the forced marriage thing is the one that really fudging GETS ME.
Y'all really willing to go on the record and say you wish we could go back to that??? You really think being seized, bought, paid for, and then raped [as a CHILD, in most cases, let us add] is--and I quote--"a glorious and romantic reflection of Jesus and His bride"? You really think that's what's missing from modern human society?? NORMALIZED HUMAN TRAFFICKING???
I feel physically ill after reading this post--I can't imagine how you felt reading through this trash-heap of books--but I admire your courage, your thoroughness, your passion for justice, and your heart for the truth. I'm proud to have you as a companion on this journey out of The Literal Pits (TM) of Christian purity culture.
<3
EXACTLY.
DeleteLike you said, everything else is bad enough. But romanticizing a tradition that LITERALLY caused human trafficking in many instances?? No.
[And the Bevere book did mention that the bride in the Hebrew tradition had the option to refuse the marriage -- which she MAY HAVE -- but I just know enough about forced marriage in general to know that A LOT OF TIMES, people claim they're giving the woman a choice but they're really not. So . . . *Major Side-Eye*]
Thank you so much. <3 I'm proud to have YOU as a companion. Thanks for wading through this discouraging, nauseating stuff with me. <3
*shakes your hand*
ReplyDelete*goes & tells my mom about this post and she says tell her I shake her hand too*
Thank you so much. That really encouraged me this afternoon. <3
DeleteI'm still trying to process the fact that some of these statements were made in so-called Christian books. Really disturbing.
ReplyDeleteReally, REALLY disturbing. It's mind-boggling, at times.
DeleteFirst off, the fact that you were able to incorporate so many great gifs and memes to this otherwise very serious post was great!
ReplyDeleteI've read several of these books when I was between 18-21 years old. And most of these kind of books were pretty repetitive. The idea that women can't initiate anything is ridiculous. Yet, keep in mind, many of these books come from conservative, anti-feminist perspective. So, any idea of a woman taking charge in any situation is frowned upon. These people would totally hate my parents and the women in my family.
BTW, I'm not saying that what you wrote is advocating feminism in anyway whatsoever or at least modern day third day feminism. You balanced everything out very well.
Another things that has always aggravated me is the idea that all men think the same way and all women think the same way. These Christian writers are forever driveling on about how men are more physical than women. Than women crave romance and poetry and are not into the physical aspects of sex and intimacy.
It wasn't until I read what you wrote that I realized how damaging those supposed gender separated ideals were to me growing up. I was an early bloomer. I got my period when I was 10 and therefore, I became sexually mature at a young age. However, I was still very much a little girl. Because I was so shy about the subject of sex, I had a hard time talking to my mother or my sisters about it. So, here I am at 10-11 years old, my body is changing and I have these intense feeling, emotions and worse of all, thoughts that are all sexually beyond my comprehension. I was scared and confused. Without going into too much detail, it led me down some paths that I was completely unaware of how, lets say...controversial. It wasn't until I got older that I begin to understand and then by that time, I was plagued by horrific guilt. I thought that I was filthy and there was something wrong with me. Then I read these books about purity and how woman don't respond to the physical, which left me thinking, "There is something wrong with me! I'm not suppose to feel this way!" Needless to say it's been an on going battle that I struggle with, but to be honest, at almost 30 years old, I've taken the mindset of what I do with my body and my mind is between me and God.
Oh and that letter excerpt from Jim Elliot to Betty...OMG! Jim totally nailed the female porn aspect there. Well done. Yet, Jim can't lay his head down on Betty's lap without getting guilty?? All people are different and imposing how you do things as the right was only causes dissension and aggravation.
If what I've written comes off as too personal, I understand if you choose not to post it. However, you really got many things right and a lot that needed to be said. The Christian Purity movement has done a great deal of damage to girls and women. Putting their emotions and feelings in a box and just ignoring them or guilt tripping them because they don't fall into the proper guidelines of what true Christian womenhood is.
Haha, thank you! I wanted to add some levity without distracting from the gravity of the subject matter, so I'm glad you liked it.
DeleteOh, wow. So were they pretty popular closer to their publication dates, then?
Absolutely; the books were all extremely patriarchal. Thank you! I personally would consider myself a feminist; other feminists might not think I am due to my thoughts on abortion, but in my mind, I am one.
Thank you so much for sharing your history with these book/ideas. I'm so sorry you had to go through sexual "awakening"/development on your own, and I'm so SO sorry that these books made you think there was something wrong with you. I didn't have the exact same experience as you, but I relate in terms of feeling sexually "conscious" at a young age, without understanding how to cope with it. We're fed a lot of confusing things in our well-intentioned Christian communities, sometimes. I'm glad you've reached a place where you know your own mind on it.
Exactly!! What on earth?! Did they not realize that that excerpt in and of itself could be enough to get people's minds "going" on sex?
It truly has done so much damage. I hate that "purity culture" is something so toxic, because purity is something we should all be aiming for in Christ! But not -- NOT -- like these books teach us to.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteNo worries!
DeleteYes, different personalities/worldviews would definitely change how someone would process this information. I think it's objectively, universally bad; but the degree of harm could definitely vary.
Ok, but that's another thing! Reading books on purity/marriage/etc. and feeling "guilty" or "sneaky" for it. I experienced some of that, and I believe a lot of it is because there's an unfortunate lack of proper education for young people in Christian communities when it comes to sex. Not all the time, but sometimes, in some communities. So then they have natural curiosity, but their parents/teachers/etc. aren't necessarily responding well to that curiosity.
That's a good point! People really need to just to not respond reactively. Of course, that's easier to say than to do.
Yep, for sure. I just still don't think people have the right to set themselves up as teachers for vulnerable young people and say things like, "Okay, certain activities which AREN'T sex but may LOOK more like sex than *I* want them to are now UNIVERSALLY PROHIBITED."
Definitely! I've been pretty sheltered and I'm sure that's protected me in some ways.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the human trafficking thing. As I mentioned in the post, I definitely don't think all arranged marriage IS human trafficking; I know a lot of people did and do participate in arranged marriage of their own volition. But -- like you pointed out -- many, MANY people over the centuries have been FORCED into arranged marriages; and that I do consider human trafficking. (For example: "Marry this person or starve to death" is not a real "choice". And as you said, that was or is the case for countless people. And it isn't a situation we should want to replicate in today's societies.) I wouldn't expect arranged/forced marriage to be the main source of human trafficking in the U.S. either, but it is still a problem.
You're so right: prostitution is not "empowering" to women. That's a disgusting, repulsive idea that willfully ignores historical reality. And our judicial system sucks at punishing sexual misconduct, including pimps and clients.
Yes to all of this!! First of all, I love your use of gifs, it's always *chef's kiss*. Secondly, all of this didn't even make me mad, it just breaks my heart that people could truly believe this of God's word. I'm sorry you even had to read it, but I'm glad you could talk about it so openly. But most of the stuff from those books that you shared is just a big old oof if I've ever seen one. :|
ReplyDeleteThank you so much, haha!
DeleteI know. It's genuinely heartbreaking. Thanks for reading, and for your support! <3
This is like the best post ever. You are amazing and this was so well formulated and ugh wth these books?????
ReplyDeleteUgh . Everything. The initiating. Ugh. How is that a thing??? The how far is too far bothers me so much. When I first kissed my bf I felt guilt bc youth group had told me 'blue and pink make purple and u dont want purple before u married!' And like relating that to a kiss??? When it's like a v natural way of showing affection to your romantic partner? Ugh.
Yeah. All you said: love it😘
Thanks, Naomi! <3
Delete"Blue and pink make purple" OH MY WOOOORRRDDDDD. That is simultaneously hilarious and tragic. xD But in all seriousness, I'm so sorry your youth group made you feel that you were in any way sinning or "misbehaving" by kissing your boyfriend. *facepalm*
Thank you! :D <3
YES TO ALL OF THIS. AMEN AND AMEN AND AMEN AND HALLELUJAH.
ReplyDeleteYOU SAID IT, MADAM.
DeleteYeah. Um, yeah.
ReplyDeleteSo, when I was a teen, we lived in North Carolina, surrounded by some pretty legalistic non-denominational Christians. We're Lutherans, but all my friends were either Baptist or non-denom (or Jewish) from age 12-18. "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" was published when I was 17. I knew people who wore purity rings. (I also knew people who kissed their boyfriends, and even made out with them.) I knew people who read and shared books like these. I knew girls who had never worn pants or shorts and looked side-eyed at those of us who did. It was a pretty weird time and place to be a teen girl with a fairly high libido. And no boyfriend.
Happily, I never read any of these sorts of books. The closest I got was whatever "sex ed" program from Focus on the Family my mom used to teach me the facts of life. Which, as far as I can remember 30 years later, was pretty much about how to handle your emotions, what your physical changes will be like, and what married people do that unmarried people shouldn't. With a little bit about wanting to kiss boys (I vividly recall a cartoon about a girl and a boy kissing for the first time, and they're both wondering which one of them is supposed to make the "Mwah" sound when they kiss).
However. Even though I didn't read these, I was very exposed to this mindset by the people I hung out with as a teen and even on into college. I had a college friend who was really interested in a guy and then dropped him like a hot potato when she found out he wasn't a virgin and went around telling everyone not to date him because of that. Like, total shunning. He was a really nice guy, but out of my league, so didn't really affect me since I never had the guts to talk to him anyway, but it bothered me a lot that people were being really weird about him. (At the same time, 4 of my 6 roommates during college weren't virgins. So yeeeeeeeeah.)
The best book about human sexuality within marriage I *did* read was called "The Act of Love," though I can't remember the author now. I read it while I was engaged and preparing for marriage, and I found it so useful and good that I recommended my fiance read it too. It was a very straight-forward book, from a Christian point of view, on what sex within marriage is all about. Along with a frank discussion of what to expect on your wedding night, how to understand what your husband or wife needs, how to understand and identify your own needs, and how to transition from the "we're not supposed to do this" premarital mindset to the "we are fully free to do this" married mindset.
ANYWAY. You're so brave for reading all this harmful dreck. And I applaud you for calling out these hurtful, harmful ideas. Because yeah, so much messed-up-ness. So much potential for harm. Out of curiosity, what did you do with them? Did you burn them? Recycle them?
"It was a pretty weird time and place to be a teen girl with a fairly high libido." I FEEL THIS.
DeleteWhew. Boy. It sounds like you had an "interesting" introduction to purity culture, too. :-P
That's so sad. Shunning isn't the answer. I wish we as a Church didn't mess this up so much.
I'll have to look into "The Act of Love." That's a whole other topic I didn't explore here: the "sex is bad" vs. "sex is good" mentality. Christians who are willing to talk frankly (i.e. in "detail") about sex provide a very refreshing, needed voice.
Thank you! Haha, good question. I currently have them Hidden From View, awaiting judgment. I'm HOPING that I will be able to find somewhere nearby where I can recycle them. I don't feel comfortable donating them, but I also don't love the idea of just throwing them away because, you know, the planet and all.
I think it helped that none of this was coming from MY parents, so I could mostly just be like, "Okay, yeah, you do you, and I'll be over here thinking my own thoughts, okay? Thanks."
DeleteShunning is NOT the answer. Neither is embracing/accepting that "all teens are just gonna have sex at some point and that's just natural." No, it's not. It's natural to WANT to have sex -- God created all of us, including our sexuality and desires. He also created us with the ability to control and channel that part of ourselves. We definitely need more books/guides to "when you do get married and it's okay to do this, then here's what to expect, some kindly Christian advice on how to physically love your spouse, and a healthy dose of affirmation that this is not going to be perfect and mind-blowing and movie-soundtrack-playing-in-your-head on your wedding night." Cuz there aren't a lot of books like that out there, that I've seen. (DO NOT say I should write one. I have a lot of other books waiting in line right now. Lol.)
You can rip the covers off books and recycle the pages like ordinary paper. We do it all the time. Well, I mean, we do it sometimes.
Gotcha. It is always helpful when people in your closest circle are not contributing to the trouble.
DeleteExactly. It IS, in fact, possible to healthily handle the "issue" of sexuality, without reverting either to promiscuity or to repression. And Christians REALLY need to get over the idea that knowing more about sex than the bare essentials is sinful. (You should wri -- never mind.)
Ahhh, thank you. That's good to know. ("We do it all the time. Well, I mean, we do it sometimes." Hee hee.)
Now that I'm the steward of a Little Free Library, I recycle books weekly. Cuz it's a truth universally acknowledged that Windows 95 for Dummies is no longer of use to anyone and should be recycled to save the environment and my sanity.
DeleteWhere do I even start?? Olivia. Thank you so much for writing this post. I shared it with two friends and had a really good (I think) conversation with one of them about this whole topic and how we were raised to believe some very WRONG things. Honestly, your skill at tackling topics like this one still amazes me. For example, I knew something was "off" about books like these, but I've never been able to articulate my feelings/disagreements so gracefully and yet so strongly. You know? Like sometimes I feel like I have opinions and thoughts but I don't feel that I have the authority/maturity/wisdom to state my case in a way that people understand. Having conversations about topics like this can be hard for me because... so much of the time, I realize I'm simply NOT SURE what I personally believe anymore (it's confusing! disorienting! especially when i'm forced into on-the-spot conversations with someone who has a RADICALLY opposed belief system/worldview to mine!! *ensue panic*) so, what I'm trying to say here is THANK YOU for continually being a great resource that I can turn to and even point others to when things get confusing. In recent years, you have actually helped me to figure out what I believe and how to navigate tricky issues. SOMEHOW IT ALL SEEMS SO CLEAR WHEN YOU LAY IT OUT IN WRITING -- in a way it rarely is when I try to think my way through it. So...…. thank you :))
ReplyDeleteI think we may have had Rather Similar upbringings... simply because you mention/talk about a lot of things that I was also exposed to/experienced. HOWEVER. It seems that you were mostly exposed in a way that showed the wrong-ness of such ideologies??? Whereas, my upbringing definitely supported/instill a lot of this harmful thinking... which is *difficult* and I still feel that in many, many areas I am trying to "throw off" the bad while still clinging to the good. (Like... throwing off some of the bad things you mentioned in this post like "purity culture" and modesty that becomes more like shame, etc... but ALSO maintaining a belief in God, the church, some form of modesty, and not just running wild and having sex with every boy I encounter??? It's just feels hard. To remove bad but keep some kind of moral code. It becomes rather muddling to know what the difference between good and bad is when so much of what I was taught to believe was good is actually... very, very unhealthy.) ANYWAY. I'm rambling (I knew I would, ugh) but what I'm trying to say is THANK YOU. This post actually meant a lot to me on a personal level.
I read a lot of similar books... they were kind of my sex ed?? I guess?? I was a very curious pre-teen/teen and these books were EVERYWHERE at my house growing up. So I read Passion and Purity/The Bride Wore White/I Kissed Dating Goodbye and many similar books when I was between 12 and 15. I so wish that I had NOT read them at such an impressionable age... and that, if I did have to read them, it was with the perspective and wisdom that I have now. At the time, they seemed fairly reasonable and formed a big part of my worldview. But wow... wow, wow, wow. Looking back on them now (and sort of through *your* eyes), I see how truly WRONG these books were. The things they were impressing upon me at such a young age. Agh. It makes me mad that there was such a huge movement in Christian/homeschooling/conservative culture to force young people to think and act this way.
(I have to continue this in a new comment because Blogger is saying my original comment is too long??)
(Part 2, I am so sorry for talking so much...)
DeleteI loved what you said in points 1 and 4 especially. Not only do these types of books tell women that their sex drive is wrong (or... supposedly nonexistent??) but it ALSO makes *all men* look like... animals??? Like, girls just want the Soft Things like conversation and intimacy and emotions and security... whilst men are apparently just like SEXSEXSEXSEXSEXSEX. It's so... degrading for boys and men??? Like they are just emotionless sex robots??? Which is so grossly untrue??? In my (limited) romantic experience, boys want to talk and share emotions and experience longterm commitment EVERY BIT as much as any girl I know. I feel like the whole setup just makes sex such a... looked-down-upon form of loving someone??? As far as initiative goes... I know *so many* people who still HARDCORE believe that a girl asking a guy out is WRONG. Gladly, I can say that I *always* disagreed (even as a young teen who didn't know a whole lot!) with this weirdness. I'm not sure if you've read Dating With Integrity?? I also read that a long time ago (so I can't vouch for ALL of what it said... maybe there was some issues there as well) but I do remember thinking that it had a much more balanced view of who takes initiative in a relationship, etc. (Fun fact: The same author is the only one I've ever read who had a compassionate view of the issue of masturbation... which seemed to always be a hot topic in Purity Culture Books and always in a very... condemning kind of way.)To wrap this up... I laughed ("those erotic shoulders" -- how did you make this post so funny and so angry at the same time??) and I cried (not really, but I was deeply struck by the truth here) and I am so deeply grateful that you wrote it. You have the wisdom to stand firmly on a foundation of truth while also calling out the lies for what they are. I THOROUGHLY APPLAUD. (Also! I would be so! interested! in seeing more posts like this one! just... in case you were thinking about doing more:))
KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE. *cries*
DeleteThank you so, SO much for your comments! They truly made my day. I appreciate them so much. <3
First of all, the fact that A) you shared this post with friends & discussed it afterwards, and B) some of my writing has been a help to you over the years ALMOST MADE ME CRY. For real. I can't tell you how much that means to me. :') <3
"Having conversations about topics like this can be hard for me because... so much of the time, I realize I'm simply NOT SURE what I personally believe anymore (it's confusing! disorienting! especially when i'm forced into on-the-spot conversations with someone who has a RADICALLY opposed belief system/worldview to mine!! *ensue panic*)"
^^ I just had to bring that up because THAT IS A MOOD IF I'VE EVER SEEN ONE.
Yes, I think we probably have had similar upbringings. As for growing up seeing the wrongness of these ideas . . . mmmm, yes and no, maybe? Unfortunately, several of the ideas are ones with which I MYSELF used to agree. But in terms of ideas that other people/influences DIRECTLY TAUGHT ME, the ones that were most damaging to me were the ones discussed in points #1 and #5. Those caused some harm. I'm so sorry that you were fed so much of this! It can be truly poisonous, and I'm so sorry you're still having to wrestle with the collateral damage. You are doing the brave & important work, sifting through your formative influences and examining them for error. You have got this and God is with you. <3 He must be proud of your commitment to "test everything; hold fast to what is good" (1 Thess. 5:21) instead of going the easier route of either accepting or rejecting EVERYTHING point-blank.
OKAY BUT THE SEX ED THING. That is a whole other can of worms that is SO VERY WORMY and so very in need of correction. IT IS SO TRUE. Since our own sex ed is often so lacking, we turn to resources like this AND THEN OFTEN FEEL GUILTY ABOUT IT, which is so very problematic on so very many levels. *sigh* You're preaching to the choir, sis.
ANYWAY. I'm so sorry you were exposed to all this muck at such a sensitive age. That must make it even more difficult to break away from.
NEVER EVER EVER apologize for "talking so long"!!!! These comments genuinely, GENUINELY made me so happy. I'm so grateful you shared all these thoughts with me, and I'm not just saying that. For real. :D Plus, I'm going to have to split my reply into two parts, so. *shrugs happily*
EXACTLYYYYYYYYY. Like, no. I refuse to accept the idea that boys' ONLY NATURAL DESIRES are for sex, food, and sports, in that order. I refuse to believe that they are so shallow and featureless. God did not create Adam with half a soul. AND YES, that too. These authors do not seem to REALIZE how much damage they are causing for young Christian people. YOU CANNOT spend a person's entire adolescence drilling into their head & heart the idea that sex is dirty, shameful, bad, and a precursor to ruin & degradation, and then magically sweep away all your fire-and-brimstone teaching tactics by a glib, one-sentence addendum to the effect of, "but in MARRIAGE sex is a BEAUTIFUL and HOLY experience and you should ABSOLUTELY WANT IT." Not after effectively screaming at them all the reasons why they should run from it like it's the plague.
DeleteUgh. I get so mad. xD
Oh my gosh, really??? Mercifully, I don't think I've ever personally had anyone tell me that they think a girl initiating is always only ever WRONG & SINFUL. Yikes. Kudos to you for seeing through that nonsense from the beginning! *applauds*
I haven't read "Dating with Integrity"; I'll have to look into it. I like hearing that it has better things to say on those topics. That video that I linked to in the masturbation section is the first place I ever heard a Christian woman say that she doesn't necessarily think that masturbation is only ever a heinous sin. Like you said, masturbation is always treated with a lot of fear tactics, in a very condemning way.
AAAAHHHH THANK YOU. *tackles you* Again, your comment really meant so much to me. :D (And haha, it's funny you mention that: I have actually been mulling over the idea of doing a Part II of sorts . . . *taps chin* ;))
*HUGE BIG HUGS*
I'm still gathering my thoughts on this (excellent) post, probing my own memory of the books I'm pretty sure I read (Passion & Purity and Every Young Woman's Battle), but for now ....
ReplyDeleteWOW. Just ... wow.
Also, ALL THE BOYS AND MEN SHOULD READ THIS POST!!!
Eesh, so you did read these? I'm sorry. I hadn't really any hope that you HADN'T, but, you know. xD
DeleteHaha, thank you!! <3
Hey, ladies, let's all write true reviews for the books Olivia mentions on Amazon and GoodReads if you have it (it's pretty dope, but the way). I've done one here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/3361893109. It's not as eloquent as my sister's, (3), but I wouldn't have posted it without her hard work making this post. So thank you, Livvy Lulu! ALSO, if ALL READERS of this blog would post reviews warning vulnerable readers of the problems and inaccuracies of these books, maybe we can reduce number of the young women (and men) harmed by them.
ReplyDeleteGood point, Sissy! Thanks for reading. <3
DeleteOk. So. I purposefully left this post until I had enough time to give it justice and soak it up for all it's worth. Because I know it's going to be good, and I also know I will have a lot of thoughts and feelings to process through it all. ;)
ReplyDeleteCan I just say straight out that I love how open and honest you are in addressing things that really convict you in needing to be addressed? Like, I could definitely think these things but never quite have the guts to say them with such boldness as you (which I admire!). So thank you for saying what needs to be said.
I need to first add that I have never read any of those books, although I HAVE read at least on book written by Elisabeth Elliot. My mother liked her as an authoress and I was also given other books to read (not on purity, except for one called "It's Not (That) Complicated" by the Botkin sisters, but I can't remember if that was strictly purity or more 'guy advice' kinda thing... more to do with home making, girls living at home, and not needing to make big careers for themselves etc). I am approaching this with a cautious attitude also, as I want to be respectful to my parents who have long held rather 'old-fashioned, traditional' opinions. And I'm not sure if they'd agree with you on everything, and I'm not sure if I agree with them on everything, but I also haven't really gone into these types of conversations with them so I can't say outright either way. But I just felt I needed to say that, so as to preface my further comments on this matter.
I need to randomly say how much I APPRECIATE the "I'm not mature enough for this" picture. That basically describes my life. Right there.
(Also the Peter Pan gif. xD <3)
Your first point is very strong. Definitely agree. Also it maddens me how it really DOES make men seem so low and shallow when they say sex is their greatest desire and ultimate goal. *growls*
The second point is actually something I've come across myself! I'm almost positive at some point, (probably discussing why we were/are never allowed to wear bikinis) that someone basically said "If you wear that, don't be surprised if someone picks on you." (Bottom line, it's basically your fault if they do.)
NOT COOL.
Ok #3 just made me jump out of my seat, startled. PEOPLE ACTUALLY THINK THAT?!!?!? WHAAAAAT? Eww no please go away we do not want that.
For point #4... oh my gosh the baby yoda gif just sums it all up. XD Love it!! So true though! It's stupid. I know many people who say that the girl was the first to speak out and they never looked back. The guy was timid and a little uncertain, and who knows what may have happened if she never did.
I don't know why it's "right" and "wrong" for the guy or girl to initiate. And exactly! If a guy is offended by that, then pshaw, what a guy. :P
(I have to split my comment because it's "too long". :P
Yeah, #5 is definitely frustrating. (But like, your spaghetti straps illustration. SO TRUE. XD) (I never got that?!?! Like, how are SHOULDERS sinful to behold? :P) (How much skin is 'too much' skin if that is?)
DeleteKisses should never last longer than 3 seconds?! Bahahaha! Ok, that's just funny. Sorry, can you point me as to where in the Bible it said that? Or even WHERE YOU GOT THE IDEA FROM?!
WhAT the HECk was that excerpt from the letter Jim wrote Elisabeth?! WHO WRITES LIKE THAT?! Like, whaaat....
Reading those last few quotes in #6 really made my Blood Boil. What is that steam coming out of my ears??
"Adam was before Eve. And Adam is still before her. Adam represents a preeminence woman will never know, because he was first."
:O
No words. I have no words.
So, this really helped me. I was brought up with a lot of these points being viewed on (at least implied and in some small way agreed with) as good and right, so to re-learn what is good and right and TRUTH is quite difficult for me. I guess I have a bit more of a journey to go on, knowing my own convictions with all these things. ;) But coming to an understanding and realization that what I just assumed was real and true may not be, is a good place to start!
(And I have literally been told that it's wrong for a girl to wear spaghetti straps/crop tops and to initiate a relationship/interest. LIES.)
I really appreciate you taking the time to wait and come back to this post, Gabby! I love discussing these topics with people, and I'm all for you pacing yourself and making sure you have the mental/emotional space for it. <3 (And thank you so much for your kind words. I really appreciate them. *big hugs*)
DeleteI completely understand. One wants to be respectful of those who have different beliefs or opinions, especially if they're one's parents. But at the same time, one does need to examine the issues for oneself and pray and come to one's own conclusions.
Haha, YES! I love that "I'm not mature enough for this!" picture! It's one of my favorite moments in the movie. :D :D
#1 and #2 -- agreed.
#3: PEOPLE REALLY ACTUALLY THINK THAT, apparently, and I am BAFFLED. What the ACTUAL frick frack paddy wack. (I mean, I'm sure it has something to do with general feelings that a patriarchal culture is best and a woman's father should be her ultimate authority until her husband takes over, but LET'S NOT EVEN GET INTO THAT RIGHT NOW. *ahem*)
#4: Lol, exactly. Bro, step up or step down but don't keep standing in the way with your fragile masculinity. Some of us have places to go. xD
#5. I NEVER GOT THE SPAGHETTI STRAP THING EITHER. But I didn't wear spaghetti straps for a long time. It's just . . . no. They can handle it, and they will. xD
It's truly laughable. Heartbreaking, but also laughable because it's just. so. stupid.
Yeeeaaaahhhh. These books will do that to a person (make them speechless, that is). :-P
I'm so glad this was helpful for you! Absolutely, you have time and permission to go through the ideas with which you were brought up and to bring them before God and to discover what YOU YOURSELF think about them. You've got this. <3
(LIES INDEED. I bought my first crop top a little while ago and felt Very Self-Possessed. xD)
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ReplyDeleteI stumbled upon this blog post and am SO happy I did. I feel like we could be friends lol
ReplyDeleteI'm nearly 5 years into my marriage and am realizing some of the serious damage the mindset of these books have caused me. Lots of healing ahead of me and retraining my brain with a TRUE biblical perspective. I know you posted this several years ago so idk if you'll see this...but hope you're doing well!
Thank you so much for reading and commenting! And YES let's be friends lol. xD I've actually been wanting to do another post on this topic sometime soon so maybe this will be the motivation I need, haha!
DeleteI am so sorry that these kinds of materials have harmed you, especially now that you're navigating marriage -- praying that God would lead you and comfort you as you retrain your psyche to rest in the truth of God's heart for you and your spouse.
Thanks again so much for commenting! I hope you're doing well, too!
This is SUCH a good article. I wasn't as badly affected by purity culture as some people I knew growing up--my parents didn't believe in sex before marriage, but they weren't obsessed with modesty and purity. My mom would poke fun at extreme modesty standards from time to time, in fact. I had friends who dealt with it, though, and I dealt with a lesser version of it.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I'd thought I'd seen it all, but advocating for ARRANGED MARRIAGES??? They've worked for some people, but what about people with abusive families?? What about gay or asexual people? I know the author probably thinks gay and ace people are going against God's plan or whatever, but how is forcing them into marriage supposed to help anybody?? My parents aren't even abusive, but we have a lot of disagreements about how to live and what we want out of life, and I would still never want them picking out who I marry. Doesn't it seem like it's setting people up to be tempted to commit adultery? Like I don't think I can emphasize enough how prevalent fantasizing about adultery was in the middle ages in Europe. Hmm, I wonder why it is we don't see that so often in fiction anymore! Hmm...🤔
Okay, Elliot's point on women initiating convinced me. Everything would have been so much better if only ADAM had disobeyed God and eaten the apple before Eve did! If only Adam had thought of it first 😔 Adam should have just disobeyed God harder and then we wouldn't have all our problems /s Okay, but seriously, what even is that argument? The apple has nothing to do with asking someone out or whatever they're trying to compare it to. Unless the author is saying that this applies to every interaction between men and women? Should women just check out of the relationship and never tell men any of their opinions unless it's to blandly agree with them? I'm so confused. People will use the Bible to claim anything at this point.
(part 2 because Blogspot said my comment was too long) It makes me so mad, though, because when I was a kid, people would hammer that point home about women taking initiative in a relationship and the "wives, submit to your husbands" verse (one verse out of the entire Bible; not saying we should discount the Bible but I feel like reading Michael Pearl's book in which he took a verse out of context about hitting your kids and built an entire worldview around it taught me to be very wary of people who hammer home one verse in particular and ignore everything else that doesn't fit their worldview. Worst case scenario, but still). It literally made me swear to myself not to get married. I thought that the only way you could get married and be a good Christian was to either defer to your husband in every important decision and constantly pander to him to make sure he knew he was the head of the household if you're a woman, or else to take some sort of paternalistic role where you're constantly making decisions for someone else if you're a man. I don't want to be in either of those roles, and I personally don't want to be with someone who wants to be in either of those roles (no hate to people who would rather be in a more passive or active role in a relationship so long as they respect their partner as a human being; I just personally wouldn't be satisfied unless I was in an equal relationship). I don't know, I deal with literal gender dysphoria and I have never once worried about whether or not someone telling me what they wanted made me "emasculated" LOL. I'm pretty sure that hypothetical guy who gets asked out by a girl will survive. It also just kills me, because my mom asked my dad out, so without a woman taking the initiative I LITERALLY would not be here right now.
DeleteThe stories about the women who got blamed for being sexually harassed or for telling their husband that they weren't satisfied with their sex life are so upsetting. I've heard a lot of people talk like that, and I don't understand how you get to that point?? I also don't recall any verse in the Bible where God says that premarital sex is worse when women do it. If you want to extrapolate morals from the story of Adam and Eve, God did not give Adam any points when he said "it's actually the woman's fault that I was tempted to sin!" This is like the first Bible story everyone learns.
Becky, I'm so sorry I never saw this comment! Blogger no longer notifies me of new comments (so irritating), so I often miss them if they're on older posts . . . which is doubly frustrating since I love comments on older posts, haha!
DeleteLOVE all of your thoughts on this. The advocacy for arranged marriage is truly baffling to me??? Like, what?!?! As you said, even if you have the best parents in the world, you are most likely going to develop significant disagreements with them as to worldview, lifestyle, etc., so asking them to select your LIFELONG PARTNER just feels like such a recipe for disaster?? Especially since, as I heard someone say once, your parents are not going to be in your marriage with you. I mean, obviously, hopefully, they'll be alongside you as part of your support group, but they're not actually IN the marital relationship with you and your spouse. So that relationship should probably have an independent foundation of mutuality between you and your spouse irrespective of either of your parents!
Ha, exactly! If only ~Adam~ had taken the initiative in the fall. After all, he probably wouldn't even have fallen anyway! 'Cause he was, you know, sO mUCH wISER than Eve! *clown music intensifies*
YOU'RE RIGHT AND YOU SHOULD SAY IT. The obsession with male "leadership" and female "submission" gets wilder and wilder to me the more I learn about it and about the concepts. (UGH, I KNOW. I sincerely hope that Michael and Debi Pearl serve time in prison. :) :) :) The whole corporal punishment thing really grinds my gears because the entire "justification" for it is so exegetically bankrupt -- that verse in Proverbs is so objectively ambiguous that using it to justify adults hitting children would be laughable if it weren't so tragic.)
Okay, but the whole swearing to yourself to not get married! Such a mood. xD Before I started studying "submission" in more depth, I had already thought to myself that if complementarians were right about the Bible's teaching on that topic, I would simply ~not get married~ because I would literally rather "die alone" than accept that lifestyle. xD (Of course, I now no longer think that complementarians ARE right about the Bible's teaching, and I still may never get married because it's by no means a guaranteed thing, lol.)
Yesss!! I genuinely don't understand why someone would even want that lopsided relationship dynamic??? It's so bizarre. EXACTLY, lol. Plenty of our parents got together because our moms made the first move, and they're just fine, thank you very much.
100%, the victim blaming in cases of sexual misconduct is so disgusting, anywhere and everywhere that it appears, but particularly in communities who proclaim Christ.